What a POS thread starter, and I don't mean a player owned station. My plexing alts are raking it in at Tier 1, and Tier 1 is more than enough for any FW player to survive.

You only need three things you need for FW to work:
1. Isk incentive for players to stay in the warzone to make their isk - preferably in FW activities, and
2. Both sides need to think they can win so they both undock and fight.
3. Some sort of consequence for not defending your stuff when the other side decides to attack (i.e. create content).

Other suggestions are details to make life easier for pilots. Some of these details have been sitting out there for years such as:
1. Purple on purple shooting (Gallente/Minmatar killing Minmatar/Gallente, respectively) with no consequences.
2. Aggression timers in plexes
3. yada yada yada.

CCP just needs to put in the time to fix the remaining low hanging fruit, and we'll deal with the rest. If people want to change the details of FW, then great. Every change leads to the losing side thinking they can win - which means more content which is a good thing.

FW is what you put into it. If you undock and fight, then you'll get content. If not, you're a loser who should go to null sec.

if you are in for pvp and making money, why not be a full pirate instead? SRP to blinged ships, 'high end' elite pvp, the works. why not ask your CEO, XG what FW is all about?

I guess a good way to start is to make earning LP for completing plexes impossible when you're ship is equiped with warp stablizers.

1) Your LP value increases
2) You don't have to waste time trying to catch stabbed pilots.

Here's a little things list that has been cleaned up and passed around for a couple years that you might want to send his way. The original is linked in the newfw tweetfleet channel.

Remove FW standings hits in null sec.
Remove purple icon for allied militia - or allied militia should take standings hit if they attack you (or just get rid of allied militia) (4 way war confirmed as desired by CCP Affinity).
FW standings eligibility should be applied on individual basis, not on corp basis.
Remove faction standings hits for AoE effects (or other weapons) when in same fleet. (or remove standings hits for all AoE weapons everywhere in lowsec)
FW overview for newbroGÇÖs in militia MOTD and FW panel.
MILITIA FILTER. Militia-only contracts. GǣMilitiaGǥ filter for POS access, Citadels, etcGǪ Ability for militia members to post future events such as future fleets to entire militia on Calendar
Strengthen Faction Navy to make it harder to camp opposing highsec to farm newbs.
Have plexes persist through DT and redo spawn mechanics of non-outposts (keep them semi-random though)
Randomize plex respawn rate by using a respawn window.
Useful system upgrades
Decouple System Upgrades from Tier Level
Smooth out Tier system and fix payouts for PVP at existing level 5 payouts.
Remove aggression from plex rats (affects afk oplexers without hurting pvpGÇÖers).
Citadel problem.

Being in a lower tier pushes the LP value up for the "Losing side" because there is less LP coming in.

At least that is how I've seen things to work, so being in a lower tier and earning less LP isn't a punishment because it's worth more.

As the Gal Mil LP value climbs the farmers etc will switch sides to try and cash in on the additional value because the Caldari LP value has dropped.

From reading what has been suggested etc it seems this is being missed and it really does need to be taken into account.


-Cash out before/during the push when the value has spiked

dual timers seems like a more elegant solution than timer rollbacks.

Part of the issue we seem to run into on a semi-regular basis is how FW is currently just not dealt with or considered very much on the CCP side for whatever the reason. I'm not sure Suitonia or any other CSM rep by themselves will be able to change that, but it would be interesting to hear how they might go about it.

Pirates add content, mercs add content, citadels add content.
More content is good.
Less content is oviously bad.
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Well everybody has differents reasons to be in factional, personally I'm just by pvp reasons.

The top vp gainers for yesterday are not in your corp.

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If you want to gain vp you rabbit plex. You know this as well as I do. That is why you have plexing alts. That is why the top vp gainers are these guys for the week who fly empty or stabbed ships.
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But ok lets look at the top corps over the last week for vp and kills. Your corp has about 8% of the vp of the FDU. (FDU =86,000 vp Justified Chaos has 7220 vp) So if getting VP is the way to kills we should fully expect FDU to have about 10xs as many kills right? Instead they only have 429 kills and your corp has 222 kills on the week. Now how many plexes do you have to capture to get 86,000 vp? Think about that. FDU has significantly more vp than the next top five player corps combined from all of the factions not just gallente! Thats allot of rabbit plexing.

Now go ahead and look at the fdu's killboard and see how many of those actual pilots getting those 429 kills are on the list for top vp. So ZKill shows 10 most active pilots down to pilots that have about 13 kills. And the VP gained for the week lists 100 pilots. I do not see a single pilot in the kill top 10 for the week from the fdu making it as even one of the top 100 vp gainers. (If I missed one let me know.)

There are 2 player corps with more kills than your corp. Neither of them are listed as one of the top vp gainers for the week. In fact, other than your corp, none of the player corps that are top vp gainers are top killers. Also *none* of the top killers are top vp gainers. (again other than your corp). So it seems that your corp is more the exception than the rule. Either you want pvp or you want to gain sov.

As for me not being in faction war, I am talking about faction war sov in particular.

Most of the pvp corps in faction war have no more to do with faction war sov than I do. If you are only going to listen to people who are really participating in faction war sov across the map then you will be talking with 90% rabbit plexers. (Actually it will likely be higher than that when we add the rabbits from the other npc fw corps. I would not be surprised if 95% of the plexes captured are captured by rabbit plexers.)

I don't see how you can look at this overwhelmingly clear data and say fw sov mechanics are fine.

and i agree, but the plexing mechanic is to flip/defend systems, is it not? i know warzone ocupancy is ****** right now, but isn't it the main reason we are in FW cause of this whole gameplay?

if plexes be removed from warzone occupancy mechanic (and will just be a marker in space for fights as Perkutor Jakuard suggested), how can there be fights if nobody, esp. FW dudes, will go there in the first place...

The system could support players with only limited hours of game time too.

I didn't read his comment as saying support players iskwise but rather give them something fun and somewhat meaningful to do without allot downtime waiting for fleets etc.

I think just about anyone who has done it and like pvp in eve agrees it is fun. The problem is "and somewhat meaningful" bit. The problem is the overall sov mechanics are so bad very few care about who wins. That is why so many are getting the fun of fighting in plexes as pirates.

What people find meaningful will vary.

If sov warfare were something other than a rabbit race then more people might find doing their bit of capturing a few plexes per night as being somewhat meaningful. I know I would. And the proposals I support would achieve that.

I think there will be plenty of players like me who will go to teimo.

Crosi and XG continuing to misquote and misrepresent everyone who disagrees with them.

I posted what would change above. I don't think I can make it any simpler. I am sorry you can't understand.

BTW when you were claiming a close relationship between vp and pvp, I asked you if you all your plexing alts were in your main character's corp 2 times. You never answered. Are all your plexing alts in in Justified Chaos?

.. multiple paragraphs of stuff... and then this....

If you read that as me saying I will just start chasing rabbits in Teimo, I canGÇÖt help you.

I think XG was just trying to personalise that problem for you, to see if you perform the mental gymnastics to bridge your 'issue-solution-outcome' postulation here.

One day I might just see a post from you that "adds" something to the ideas around for FW rather than just "takes away" from someone else.

This has already been said, but I think the Tier system for rewards is bad. And I agree with the CSM wanting to get rid of it.

Make it all Even instead... Rewards should be higher for higher ranked members of the militia, encouraging loyalty and participation.

I'm not sure it does.

People looking for isk from plexes are often not looking for fights. Some might take them if they come... but they aren't LOOKING for them.

People looking for fights rarely care enough to wait for a plex to finish. They're hunting others who are plexing.

The desire for ships exploding is what drives combat in FW. Even for those wanting "action"... the tier stuff is what they do in order to FUND their action. It's not what drives it... because quite honestly it's probably more effective to run from combat if you want to raise your tier than to engage in it.

The problem with the Tier system as it stands is that it's not a carrot on a stick, it's a feast on a stick. T1 vs T5 is more than a 6x payout difference. When a T5 O-Plexer can make 160m/hour in a frigate, but his counterpart is lucky to make 30m/hour assuming both are uncontested, there is a huge difference, and instead of encouraging the horse to go faster, the rider simply gets on the other horse.

Care to explain it then?

It seems to me that those who care most about LP rewards are the rabbit plexers. Perhaps I'm coming from a different perspective as someone who's income isn't primarily from FW... I only really come to FW space for PvP opportunities. If I'm plexing... I'm doing so because I wan't to control the engagement range with whoever comes into the plex with me. The tier isn't much of a factor.

Those who've actually engaged in combat with me don't seem to be caring much about it either... which is why I'm confused in you saying the Tier gives a reason to push for action. It doesn't feel like it to me (though I'll admit my experience is limited).

I guess this is the part I'm still not completely sold on.

Does capturing systems generally lead to PvP. I've taken part in 2 system captures... and in both cases the opposition barely showed up. A week of people yelling to plex a certain system... then go shoot at the hub for a bit. the only people who showed up were a couple of neutrals trying to snipe for a little while on the IHUB bash.

I don't seem to get a lot of PvP when I engage in plexing games... I get it when I search for it (jumping between plexes until I find someone in one who wants to fight). I get SOME... but it's much less frequent for me.

To be fair though XG, when we're pushing tiers, we're rarely going after systems that will give us meaningful fights. Every home system we've sieged in the past few years (correct me if I'm wrong) has been for reasons other than pushing the tier for economic reasons. It's almost exclusively been about bragging rights or creating content. If you're trying to push your tier up, you're going for the backwoods systems that no one really cares about, because that's the most efficient way of doing it.

I think the current FW mechanics are the best we've ever had, but that's a really low bar and I think they need to be improved. Cal/Gal isn't as bad as Min/Amarr because of cultural issues, but at it's heart it's still not very healthy in terms of game mechanics. We just have a little more group loyalty over here, barring a couple corps over in Min/Amarr FW.

This is eve, everything will be abused for personal gain.

The reason making isk and making progress in occupancy has to have a significant pve element is because the devs arent competent enough to create a better system. Lets not make that stop us from demanding balance and improvements.

You are assuming something that i have never suggested.

I dont have the answers, my theorycrafting skill is too low to solve all the problems in fw. I can only point out the broken parts and ask for improvements, just like you.

It never hurts to let them know where they should show up. Just saying.

I know you think no one wants to show up and defend plexes throughout the warzone but I can tell you there are allot of players who would. Its just not feasible to ask them to randomly wander around looking for them.

Doesn't there have to be some kind of way to roll back the contention level of a system.

If the opposition offensive plexes a system my militia is defending by 10%... how do I get that back to where it was? Or can the defenders in a system only possibly hold the level where it is and never reverse it (until it flips)?

Seems like that wouldn't quite work.

Yes and we can see how well that has been working out. Go ahead and look at the top vp gainers. Its been almost a decade. CCP should not blame the players. The players need better tools.

IMO fw sov will be fixed when the people winning the most sov for their faction are not alts flying empty and stabbed ships. But as long as you most efficiently win sov by running away, the sov system is broken. Do you agree with that last sentence?

It's like your team loses in basketball and you say the scoreboard is broken because every slam dunk should count for 10 points.

CCP does not give certain systems more importance in their tier system. You are just imagining there is a rome but in the game all systems contribute equally to tiers. Your scoreboard is imaginary.

Now maybe you are suggesting CCP should change the way the scoring works. But what would happen? Everyone would blob the "Rome" system and the game would become even more null sec lite than it already is. The rest of the warzone would become even more barren.

Honestly you guys are so adamant that a real time intel tool won't hurt rabbit plexers, when it is obvious to about anyone else, I can't be sure when you are exaggerating or when you are serious.

You say you already know where the farmers are. But again people are not just looking for farmers. If you already know where everyone is running plexes then tell me how many people are running plexes right now in every system within 2 jumps of frerstorn.